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Cruor Abominare
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Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2013.05.08 01:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
I made a similar post for my corporation, I'll to expand here and pose the question of what exactly was the thinking behind the new medium suits.
This isn't a whine about new skill point requirements but simply an observation on some rather wonky design concepts.
On the surface you can look at the suits and see a basic idea permeating through them. Gallente is obviously some sort of armor suit (its actually a less hp heavy suit masquerading as an assault suit, and often times slower), minmatar is screaming shields with 5 highs, caldari as well with 4 and a high base shield amount. Amarr looks a little off though, it has even slots and even hp totals, as well as the highest base life. Is this a problem? Doesn't look like it at first but lets start exploring, and for a basis lets assume all skills are V, except for AR fitting skill, mostly because it will never actually affect a worthwhile fitting, and is a huge oversight on medium basics.
Let us start with an amarr suit, while you're free to try this exercise with any fit, this fit best explains the problem
Highs
Highs
Complex Shield Extender
Complex Light dmg
Complex Light Dmg
Proto AR
Ex-11 Nades
K17-R Hive
Toxin SMG
Lows
We still have plenty of room but hey lets put: (and this will make sense in a minute)
2x Basic Plate
1x Armor Repper
665HP, still about 40 CPU and 17 PG to go to use different weapons. Even better, I don't actually have to spend points in engy V and elect V, unless I really want to tweak my lows. This is about to be real interesting though.
Lets try matching this fit an abilities as closely as possible with minmatar.
Well we have less base hp but more highs, lets try to bridge the gap and try to match the amarr as closely as possible.
Highs
3x Complex Shield Extenders
2x Complex Light Weapons
Lows
Double Plate we have base armor rep anyways
same weapons/nades/equip
645 HP! nice we're pretty damn close and a little faster. Uh oh invalid fitting. We need 493 CPU and 87 PG. Yet we only have 416 CPU and 83 PG. Both lows are then sacrificed for fitting mods and bring us to about 574ish HP. Worse Rep/Less Life/but slightly faster.
Hmm thats odd, I had to use fitting mods and definitely had to have all skills to V, and fun fact AR fitting V wouldn't have solved my power grid problem.
Ok, ok lets do caldari next, they're mean shield tankers they should have this no prob no prob. Caldari gets a little closer after trying to match since they only need 1 fitting mod, but have 3 lows and larger base health. 639 hp. That certainly feels a little better, but still I needed fitting mods and V'ing all my skills whereas Amarr didn't?
Why is that? (gallente is so wonky I won't touch that, you try to match the hp/dmg bonus of these other three)
Well it turns out theres 2 big main problems.
1. Base Health > Mod given health. In the best of circumstances dropsuit mods are 10% bonused and Dropsuit health is 25% bonused, thats a huge difference, for example on the screen amarr medium has 360 hp to work with, the minnie has 285. You of course will fool yourself into thinking the gap isn't that small I can certainly use my extra 2 highs. However with skills the gap is much larger 450 to 356, at a modded 71 hp per extender you're already out about a slot and a half just trying to make up that difference. This is then compounded when you realize you're two slots in CPU/PG behind because you need fitting mods.
2. Slots VS CPU/PG allotment. This builds on the last problem a little. Ok so Amarr has the highest base health but 6 slots to work with, the other two notables have less hp but are rewarded with having 7 slots. Ok, I see this making a little sense if I ignore what we just talked about. However, heres the monkey wrench, the non amarrs actually have less CPU/PG to work with. They need all 7 slots to catch up, but can't actually fit all 7 without fitting mods. They get whammied again, where as amarr cruises on with dealth with it sunglasses it skilled into by saving 1.5 million in fitting skills.
Tl;Dr, if you're medium basic -> assault then get on the Amarr train, no matter the fit, you will always in every case have more HP, and be able to run better mods than any other race trying to match you. You just give up a rather meaningless token of speed thats barely noticeable to begin with, and you save SP. |
Cruor Abominare
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
15
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Posted - 2013.05.08 01:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Geth Massredux wrote:Dude just play the game, stop taking in depth detail on the stats. You might hurt yourself.
sure, I'll play. Broken mechanic is broken, but I'll totally be fine on the advantaged side.
Its basically that while we're in the sand box I'll be making a beautiful sand castle and you'll be very happy and content to eat the sand instead.
To each their own. |
Cruor Abominare
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
15
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Posted - 2013.05.08 01:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
Don Von Hulio wrote:Im Amarr, but the catch 22 of being an amarr is your health is pretty split down the middle (unless you stack alot of plates).
Benefit of Caldari is most of their health is in Shields. So they have a very fast health regen compared the rest of the suits. So they can actually sponge more damage over a period of time versus other frames. But, things like Flux nades, lasers and soon to be laser rifles will mess them up hardcore.
This is definitely a good point. However my counter point is this, i've really only moved 71 hp from the caldari hp over to armor, between armor rep and hive rep, assuming nothing like a logi hitting me for a few seconds with his repair tool. I'm pretty much back into the fight just as fast. I'm also less vulnerable to things like scrambler rifles (which will be freaking everywhere) laser rifles and flux nades.
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Cruor Abominare
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
15
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Posted - 2013.05.08 01:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bones McGavins wrote:Why do you want to build the same load out on all the suits? Clearly if you want health one suit is better than the others. But what if you want other stats like lower profile, better scanning, higher sprint speed? Then the other suits may be better.
I'd argue that the hp mixture between armor and shields is more than enough diversity without having to worry about overall shifts in maximum hp totals.
If you want those other things you may as well run a scout. The differential isn't truly noticeable between the assault gambit aside from minnie run speed, which is less important because of the drop in range shooting requiring less cover hopping and being pinned down. Tac-Net also cheapens the other two stats because as long as a team member sees a target, its updated to everyone else and vice versa.
Trying to be a sneaky assault is just being a bad scout, assaults are for well rounded firefight work, where things like damage and hp are king. A couple of points in scan will never be noticeable where as ending a fire fight dead or with just a couple of hitpoints certainly is noticeable not just to the player but the overall dynamics of a match. |
Cruor Abominare
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
16
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Posted - 2013.05.10 01:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
XANDER KAG wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Ever considered the passive bonuses?
Overheat speed on laser weapons vs. rapid reload on the Caldari, for example? I think 25% faster reload speed on Shotguns, ARs and Sniper Rifles is a pretty huge bonus.
Also, the more shield-heavy the suit, the better the benefit they get from faster shield regen. I thought it was a 2% bonus to reload speed per lvl?
it is, though on the overheating bit, all skills that pertain to heat are actually now cool down speed increases. This is huge because its actually really bad like this. You don't actually get to fire longer and it it only takes off about a second to cool down. As it stands, even with stacking light dmg, you'll be incredibly lucky to kill just about anyone by yourself with a laser burst except crummy militia suits or total fail fits.
Playing around with the theory crafting max hp on suits is hovering around 776.6 hp on Amarr, 649 Caldari, 580 Minmatar, and about the same on gallente without all the speed.
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